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23 August 2006 @ 05:21 pm
Fall election?  
Do you think PMHarper should have the softwood deal as a fall confidence vote? I mean if the numbers are there both in national public support of the Tories and in industries reluctent support of this deal, then why not? Better to get it done before the Grits elect a new leader, too. Better then just calling an election, let the opposition call it.
 
 
 
James Duggandubhagan on August 24th, 2006 12:29 am (UTC)
Considering that most of the provinces and the majority of the industry support it, I support making it a confidence vote. If the opposition parties are dumb enough to go against the industry, then it could only mean good things for us next election.
Mr. Ridiculousonasc on August 24th, 2006 01:26 am (UTC)
Dumb enough? I was unaware that most of the industry supported it until the government started throwing out these claims. (Of course, they don't back it up at all in the publications I read.)

In theory, perhaps you're right--if this government is so out of sync with industry and the people then perhaps the government should be taken down, however I would also call that an over raction to a matter that doesn't affect most Canadians.
James Duggandubhagan on August 24th, 2006 02:51 am (UTC)
What are you smoking? BC, Ontario, Quebec and the Maritime provinces supported as of what I read Tuesday, as did a large section of the industry. Sure, there are those in the industry that oppose it too, but I heard more supported than opposed.
Mr. Ridiculousonasc on August 24th, 2006 03:25 am (UTC)
I didn't speak for the provinces and I pointed out that the publications and articles I have been reading haven't seemed to mention much about this overwhelming support by industry. Perhaps you could point me to articles that do? (And while you do that, do CC the NDP. Seems they need it as much as I do.)

Besides, all of that just muddies the water with needless details: Do we really need an election over this? This is a thorn in the side of Canada, creating epic levels of political bullshit. Perhaps you can explain to me why the matter is so important that should it fail Canada would be ill advised not to have an election?
rogula on August 24th, 2006 03:58 am (UTC)
Accorind to the deal (from what I read back a few months ago) 90+% of the lumber companies had to sign on to the deal or it was a no-go (because they had to drop their legal action).

According to Emerson yesterday, they reached that 90+%, but the exact numbers where not released in the news blerb I heard.

I actually do think this should be a Confidence motion, as it is an Internation Treaty the government has signed on behalf of Canada, and if the House does not have confidence in the Government to negotiate Treaties then we should elect a Government that they do have Confidence in. Besided, it makes the Liberals look like idiots, and thats always a good thing.
Mr. Ridiculousonasc on August 24th, 2006 04:34 am (UTC)
Ok, fair enough, that is a pretty good reason. I don't know how much I believe from Emerson--or well politicians in general, but I'll buy it cautiously.
James Duggandubhagan on August 24th, 2006 03:59 am (UTC)
I don't remember where I read the article. Though it didn't give a number either, so who knows. I know for sure that there is support within the industry for it, but that there is also opposition in the industry for it too. Though I have heard nothing about actual percentages. I've read one thing, you've read another. One thing I do know is that there are those in the industry that say even though it's not perfect, it's the best that can be hoped for.

As for the whole confidence motion, strbjun said it best below.
Mr. Ridiculousonasc on August 24th, 2006 04:32 am (UTC)
Those reasons are self serving crap.
James Duggandubhagan on August 24th, 2006 04:11 pm (UTC)
Duh, it's politics. Most decisions are self serving.
allhatnocattleallhatnocattle on August 24th, 2006 02:59 am (UTC)
Most lumber companies do support this new deal. They've been saying so ever since Emerson first announced it. But listen carefully to what they've said. The lumber industry isn't happy about it but believe this is the best deal they'll be able to strike, so while they support it, they support it reluctantly. I suppose the same goes for the provinces, although words from politicians, of course, are murkier.
Mr. Ridiculousonasc on August 24th, 2006 03:38 am (UTC)
I suppose. It's been up and down, and lately I had the impression it was down. (Especially given some recent developments.) When everything is said and done, there really is no way to see how much support is right now. I suppose in a couple years (if it gets implemented) we will know how good the deal was for Canada.
Mr. Ridiculousonasc on August 24th, 2006 03:40 am (UTC)
Wow... strike "When everything is said and done" -- that makes no sense.
Nathaniel BenAngeloangel_thane on August 24th, 2006 02:56 am (UTC)
We're going to get hammered on it. Firstly, we've failed at our own score - we originally said that we needed 95% industry support, now that's just changed to 'a substantial majority' the opp won't let us forget it.

Secondly it's a terrible, sell-out of a deal that Canadians will wonder why we agreed to it.

I just hope we have the numbers to push it through, or we're starting in a bad bad place.
allhatnocattleallhatnocattle on August 24th, 2006 03:14 am (UTC)
Well, that is a pickle. Although Harper has been hinting his support from lumber is quite high, 95% is a very high bar to jump over. Lofty goal.

It's a sell out deal, sure, but not a terrible one. I think something is better then nothing, and lumber has gotten used to a whole lot of nothing, so when they start getting something, it'll soon seem like they're getting the moon.

The Libs are leaderless, and look like shit with members supporting Hezbollah and then resigning critic jobs... I doubt a bad lumber deal will have much impact in an election that's always multi-issued. Afghanistan, on the other hand, could be the issue to make or break the Tories.
Nathaniel BenAngeloangel_thane on August 24th, 2006 03:21 am (UTC)
Has Boris resigned? Bugger. There goes a hammer from our toolbox.

The deal effectively gives the US everything they asked for, there's really no give from them for us to take. Hell, I'd vote against it if I could.

The Libs are leaderless, but they'll play that to the public somehow. They're good at sneaky shit like that, and will make it even easier for them to be all things to all people.
allhatnocattleallhatnocattle on August 24th, 2006 03:27 am (UTC)
Everything they asked for? If that were true, they'ld be hurrying over with pens ready eager for Harper to sign. That's certainly not the case as Americans have gone into this deal with about the same amount of reluctance.
rogula on August 24th, 2006 04:00 am (UTC)
The Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports in the states had athe same comments as some of our industry "we are not 100% happy with it, but its the best we can get".
(Deleted comment)
allhatnocattleallhatnocattle on August 24th, 2006 03:23 am (UTC)
Especially when you see all the devestation all the pine beetles have been doing. I was in Kelowna this summer and the trees between here (Calgary) and there are nearly all brown. The forestries have been clear-cut harvesting the devestation(salvage)to stay one step ahead of the beetles. Selling to the USA (who also has pine beetles) for decent profit would be most welcome at this dire hour.
rogula on August 24th, 2006 03:53 am (UTC)
While most people are not 100% happy with the deal, most people realize the hard facts... it is the best we are going to get.

As Dubhagan said, industry supports it, provinces support it... so I say go for it. If the Liberals or BLOC want to force an election over this issue, go for it.

(I didn't include the NDP as they are of course against it, because it makes sence, and they would never support anything that makes sence!)